AK: So I think that's kind of what you're talking about this? You know, the why people think, you know, always associate camp with queer. Camp has been appropriated by mainstream. It's not as powerful, so when you talk about camp, you have to talk about certain periods. But that's this is subversiveness, don't you think?

RK: Like during that time. It was very outlandish. Yeah, yeah. Nowadays, it's like, even, I don't think it's even as campy as it was back then.

AK: I really like it, you know, on top, you know, and it's a form of like, well, 'deal with it, you know, you straight people, deal with it,'' you know, and it's empowering! I mean, I know, there was a period when I was teaching this. Students were so upset with camp, but it's like, I don't think you really understand the history of it. I mean, maybe now it's been appropriated, but it was a tool of empowerment, you know? So it's an interesting, kind of, you know, signature of of queerness you know, but I think it's often misunderstood.

RK: Yeah. Especially because it's mainstream now.